Politics in 2017

Information and ideas that aren't about baseball, but that you think the community would appreciate, go here.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby d'Kong76 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:23 am

User avatar
d'Kong76
David Arthur Kingman, 1B-OF-3B 1975-1977, 1981-1983

Posts: 19083
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 7:56 pm
Location: Glutenville, NY
Ok, but 20 years is too long for me. Let's go 10 and out. Next.
Fresh beats stale every single time.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 am

User avatar
batmagadanleadoff
J.P. Ricciardi. Special Assistant to the GM

Posts: 14935
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
Ceetar wrote:
I'm not sure. But for one you can't let this administration have placed so many unqualified and partisan judges in such an underhanded and undemocratic method and just let them sit there for 40 years. that sets this country back decades.



Therein lies the problem --- the operative word in your post being "administration". Trump is as much as a symptom as he is the problem. The problem is the administration. They voted on all these unqualified judges Trump nominated. They also installed Scott Pruit, Betsy Devos and Jeff Sessions into the cabinet. The GOP senate voted to pass an extremely unpopilar tax bill. Think about that. Think about the meaning of Scott Pruitt running the EPA. Just for 45 seconds. This administration is so fucked up that Pruitt, Devos and Sessions holding cabinet positions is probably by now, 300 items down on the list of what's wrong with everything. Impeachment proceedings won't do anything. The thing to do is vote the whole lot of them out of office. That's the only way things will change.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Ceetar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:33 am

User avatar
Ceetar
Jane Jarvis, Organist, 1964-1979

Posts: 20560
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Moving target: Check Big Apple Brews
batmagadanleadoff wrote:Impeachment proceedings won't do anything. The thing to do is vote the whole lot of them out of office. That's the only way things will change.


meh, symptom, as you said. We got rid of Bush, yay! we've got intelligent leadership again! oh wait.. There's more problems then just picking the less evil party.


The problem I'm grappling with is how to define, legislatively, what McConnell, et al, did with Gorsuch and these judges as clearly subverting the process versus giving (more) partisan control of the judicial branch to the other two? i.e. how do we boot the lawyer that's basically never been a judge and is legitimately unqualified that Trump just appointed without opening up his replacement to partisan ejection by a future administration?
"Look, would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?"

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:48 am

User avatar
Edgy MD
Rube Walker — Pitching Coach, 1968–1981

Posts: 90193
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:03 pm
Location: Baltimore
I embrace impeachment. Hygiene for the republic!
I'll be your patron saint of heartbreak.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby John Cougar Lunchbucket » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:25 pm

User avatar
John Cougar Lunchbucket
Eddie Yost, 3B Coach 1968-1975

Posts: 30832
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:47 pm
Yup. Call me optimistic but when it's its all laid out, and it will be, those who voted no are going to be remembered for the ignoramuses like they are.
Let me tell you something: I have a big set of balls.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Mets Willets Point » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 pm

User avatar
Mets Willets Point
75) Bartolo Colon; SP, RP; 2014-2016

Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:53 pm
Bye Al, don't let the door grab you by the ass on the way out.
Mr. Met knows; he's seen some shit.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Nymr83 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm

User avatar
Nymr83
Bob Murphy, Voice of the Mets, 1962-2003

Posts: 14270
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:18 pm
d'Kong76 wrote:Ok, but 20 years is too long for me. Let's go 10 and out. Next.
Fresh beats stale every single time.


The only issue with 10, at least for the supreme court, is that it lets a 2 term president replace almost the entire court, which doesnt seem like a good idea. 20 sounds better to me at least at the top.
Well, I've got nothing against the bunt, in its place. But most of the time that place is the bottom of a long-forgotten closet. -Earl Weaver

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:52 pm

User avatar
Edgy MD
Rube Walker — Pitching Coach, 1968–1981

Posts: 90193
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:03 pm
Location: Baltimore
Doesn't seem like the kind of thing that could pass the Constitutional Amendment process.
I'll be your patron saint of heartbreak.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Lefty Specialist » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:53 pm

User avatar
Lefty Specialist
77) Jack Fisher, SP, RP, 1964-1968

Posts: 5535
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:58 am
Location: Location, Location.
I'm okay with 20, too. The reason for lifetime appointments is to counter political pressures. 20 is long enough to insulate judges. 10 is too short.
Only in today's America can policy be based on the notion that the rich have too little and the poor have too much.

Resistance is not futile. https://www.indivisibleguide.com/indivisible-action

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby d'Kong76 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:54 pm

User avatar
d'Kong76
David Arthur Kingman, 1B-OF-3B 1975-1977, 1981-1983

Posts: 19083
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 7:56 pm
Location: Glutenville, NY
It was a pipe dream.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Ceetar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:09 pm

User avatar
Ceetar
Jane Jarvis, Organist, 1964-1979

Posts: 20560
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Moving target: Check Big Apple Brews
What if we set up a "in waiting" system that spanned years, at least for the higher/supreme court? Like have 3 justices in waiting, and make the process to remove one harder than to add one, but it adds a bit of a probation period for these guys, plus allows them to transverse multiple congresses hopefully avoiding some of the politics of it.
"Look, would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?"

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:54 am

User avatar
batmagadanleadoff
J.P. Ricciardi. Special Assistant to the GM

Posts: 14935
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:And a second woman comes out and says Al Franken groped her butt, told others about it in 2010. So seeya, Al. Get this over with.


Like you said, the Minnesota Governor is a Democrat, and so he'll install a Democrat Senator to replace Franken, pending that state's special election in 2018.

And being that it looks like the country's in for a Democrat wave election in 2018 and Minnesota leans blue, the Dems should hold Franken's seat beyond 2018, should he resign.


Probably. But not so fast.


Democrats Will Likely Hold Franken’s Seat, But Minnesota’s Not As Blue As It Seems

By Harry Enten
Filed under 2018 Election


excerpt:


Sen. Al Franken announced on Thursday that he will resign from the U.S. Senate following multiple accusations of sexual misconduct. Once Franken officially leaves office, Democratic Gov. Mark Dayton will appoint a replacement (possibly Lt. Gov. Tina Smith) who will hold the seat through the 2018 midterm elections. In 2018, a special election will take place to determine who will hold the seat until the regularly scheduled election in 2020. Whether Dayton’s pick runs in 2018 or not,1 the eventual Democratic candidate will likely be favored to win that race — though it’s not a sure thing.

The good news for Minnesota Democrats is that the political environment is, at this point, heavily in their favor. They hold an 8 percentage point lead on the generic congressional ballot.2 If that holds through 2018 — not a bad bet — and nothing weird happens, Democrats will be favorites to hold on to the Franken seat. The last time there was no elected incumbent running in a Minnesota Senate race in this type of pro-Democratic midterm environment, for example, Democrat Amy Klobuchar won by 20 points.

The not-so-great news for Minnesota Democrats is that the state has become redder since 2006. Really, Minnesota is a purple state. Hillary Clinton beat President Trump by only 1.5 points in Minnesota — less than her 2.1-point margin in the national popular vote.... Klobuchar’s landslide win might have been a bit of an aberration. Back in 2008, another very good year for Democrats, Franken first won his Senate seat by just 312 votes.

This is all a slightly complicated way of saying that Minnesota is likely to stay blue in 2018, but not because of anything fundamental about Minnesota. Instead, Democrats’ advantage comes almost entirely from the friendly political environment, which can change....

Ultimately, we’ll need to see which candidates both Democrats and Republicans run in Minnesota to fully grasp each side’s chances. Candidate quality still matters in Senate elections (see Alabama 2017). If Democrats can select a candidate who is able to separate her- or himself from Franken’s brand, she or he will probably have a better shot than a generic Democrat. On the other hand, if the Republicans choose a strong candidate, she or he may be able to capitalize on residual anger against Franken, whose approval rating plummeted following the allegations made against him.

For now, the most we can say is that the 2018 Minnesota Senate race leans Democratic, but Republicans have a real shot.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de ... -it-seems/

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:17 am

User avatar
batmagadanleadoff
J.P. Ricciardi. Special Assistant to the GM

Posts: 14935
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
batmagadanleadoff wrote:Oddsmakers are giving Roy Moore an 80% chance to win the Alabama special election. When it's all said and done, Al Franken won't be in the Senate, but Roy Moore will. That's because the GOP plays to win. Democrats will have scored a moral point, but Neil Gorsuch is on the bench for decades and Citizens United will be the law of the land for the rest of everybody's life here. Meanwhile, Trump is rapidly filling up the 100 lower court vacancies that were stolen from Obama in an en masse Merrick Garland-style blockade with extreme right-wing radicals.


If the Democrats pick up precisely two Senate seats in 2018, then you can say that the upcoming Alabama special election will determine which party will control the Senate after next year's midterm elections. In that light, I'm not the only one who thinks the Dems, once again, are pansy suckers in these widening sexual harassment scandals. Like I said, the Dems will score their moral points, and the GOP will have the SCOTUS bench, and thus, the country, for decades to come. The GOP will gladly trade moral points for power every single second of every single day of the week.

The Uneven Playing Field
Sure, don’t stoop to their level. But let’s acknowledge that the game Republicans are forcing everyone to play insists morality is for losers.
By Dahlia Lithwick


excerpt:

Remember “when they go low, we go high?” Yep. So do I.

I remembered it in the fall of 2016, when Senate Republicans and then-candidate Donald Trump first made it irrevocably clear there would be no hearing for anyone Barack Obama nominated to the Supreme Court, ever, even though Obama had put up a moderate, centrist nominee who was once acceptable to Senate Republicans. I remembered it when Trump won, and we realized that that seat would stay stolen.

I remembered it this week when the Senate passed a tax bill at 2 a.m. that apparently contains a $289 billion error, thanks to the fact that it was drafted in the margins rather than adjudicated through normal congressional standards, as, say, Obamacare was.

And I remember it almost daily now, as John Conyers steps down after 52 years in Congress, amid credible allegations of sexual harassment, and Al Franken is called upon to step down, amid credible allegations of sexual harassment, while Roy Moore continues—with the president’s and the GOP’s overt endorsement—his run for Senate amid credible allegations of sexual abuse of children.

Al Franken, many argue, should now resign. He should resign immediately because there are credible accusers (another emerged Wednesday), and because the behavior alleged is sufficiently abhorrent that there is simply no basis to defend him. In this parade of unilateral disarmament, Trump stays, Conyers goes, Moore stays, Franken goes.

Is this the principled solution? By every metric I can think of, it’s correct. But it’s also wrong. It’s wrong because we no longer inhabit a closed ethical system, in which morality and norm preservation are their own rewards. We live in a broken and corroded system in which unilateral disarmament is going to destroy the very things we want to preserve.

To see the double standard in action, watch Mike Huckabee making the case that Roy Moore should be welcomed into the Senate because Franken has stayed. Then keep watching and realize that in the next breath, he adds that Moore has “denied the charges against him vehemently and categorically” so they must be false. Franken and Conyers are deployed by the right to say Moore should stay, and then they are dismissed as suckers for crediting their accusers....

The alternative is a game of righteous ball, in which the object is pride and purity, and Dems are the only ones playing.

You can talk about gradations of harm—what Franken is accused of still pales next to child predation—but even that is a trap. The point is ... that “one party has adopted a zero-tolerance position ... and another party opens its arms to people it believes are miscreants.” ... My own larger concern is that becoming the party of high morality will allow Democrats to live with themselves but that the party is also self-neutering in the face of unprecedented threats, in part to do the right thing and in part to take ammunition away from the right—a maneuver that never seems to work out these days. When Al Franken, who has been a champion for women’s rights in his tenure in the Senate, leaves, what rushes in to fill the space may well be a true feminist. But it may also be another Roy Moore. And there is something deeply naïve, in a game of asymmetrical warfare, and in a moment of unparalleled public misogyny, in assuming that the feminist gets the seat before it happens.

This isn’t a call to become tolerant of awful behavior. It is a call for understanding that Democrats honored the blue slip, and Republicans didn’t. Democrats had hearings over the Affordable Care Act; Republicans had none over the tax bill. Democrats decry predators in the media; Republicans give them their own networks. And what do Democrats have to show for it? There is something almost eerily self-regarding in the notion that the only thing that matters is what Democrats do, without considering what the systemic consequences are for everyone....

In the event that you doubt that the war is asymmetric, ask yourself how long it took for the same GOP that was disavowing Moore a month ago to embrace him, and to embrace him again in the face of new evidence....

Who knows why the GOP has lost its last ethical moorings? But this is a perfectly transactional moment in governance, and what we get in exchange for being good and moral right now is nothing. I’m not saying we should hit pause on #MeToo, or direct any less fury at sexual predators in their every manifestation. But we should understand that while we know that our good faith and reasonableness are virtues, we currently live in a world where it’s also a handicap.

Unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side. That may be a trade worth making in some cases. But it’s worth at least acknowledging that this is the current calculus. It’s no longer that when they go low, we get to go high. They are permanently living underground. How long can we afford to keep living in the clouds?


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ality.html

________________


I Don't Think the Moral High Ground Exists Anymore

Some thoughts on Al Franken's departure.
By Charles P. Pierce
Dec 7, 2017


... The problem is where do the Democrats go now, although I’m fairly sure Senator Kirsten Gillibrand will be heading to Iowa. Is it time (again) to tug their forelocks over Bill Clinton? Maybe they could dig up Teddy Kennedy and hold their own Cadaver Synod, expelling him from the Senate posthumously? LBJ would be next, then Jack, then finally Thomas Jefferson. Ah, but now, we are told, they have The Moral High Ground, as though you needed to throw one of your own overboard in order to have the moral standing to oppose seating an alleged child molester in the Senate, or to remind people that the president* copped to sexual assault on tape....

There is no commonly accepted Moral High Ground left to occupy anymore, and to pretend one exists is to live in a masturbatory fantasyland. It’s like lining yourself up behind Miss Manners in a political debate against Machiavelli. Until the Democrats are willing to think asymmetrically about the very real political danger posed by the president* and his party, the danger will grow until it becomes uncontrollable, and that point is coming very soon, I fear. By the time the Democrats admit to themselves that their political opposition has moved so far beyond shame that it can’t even see Richard Nixon any more, the damage wrought to our political institutions may be beyond repair.



http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/po ... gh-ground/

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Edgy MD » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:45 am

User avatar
Edgy MD
Rube Walker — Pitching Coach, 1968–1981

Posts: 90193
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:03 pm
Location: Baltimore
Masturbatory fantasyland?
I'll be your patron saint of heartbreak.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:48 am

User avatar
Benjamin Grimm
Ralph Kiner
Hall of Famer/Broadcaster

Posts: 42241
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 7:49 am
Location: The Baxter Building
It's the newest attraction at Disney. I would recommend avoiding it.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Ceetar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:51 am

User avatar
Ceetar
Jane Jarvis, Organist, 1964-1979

Posts: 20560
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Moving target: Check Big Apple Brews
That esquire piece feels like garbage?

moral high ground? absolutely, that's what 'we' want, but the democrats are too busy trying to play by the rules and appeal to the republican base and what not.

go all in on rights for women, immigrants, a better society, etc. The 'right wing' appeal, if they want, is to push the infrastructure type stuff that working class people deal with every day. roads, tunnels, bridges. the 'down in the streets' society improvements. Drinking water. WiFi for all.
"Look, would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?"

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Lefty Specialist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:22 am

User avatar
Lefty Specialist
77) Jack Fisher, SP, RP, 1964-1968

Posts: 5535
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:58 am
Location: Location, Location.
Benjamin Grimm wrote:It's the newest attraction at Disney. I would recommend avoiding it.


Oy, what the cleanup must be like.
Only in today's America can policy be based on the notion that the rich have too little and the poor have too much.

Resistance is not futile. https://www.indivisibleguide.com/indivisible-action

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby seawolf17 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:25 am

User avatar
seawolf17
Phantom Met Terrel Hansen. Two days, zero games, 1992

Posts: 17163
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: LI
Lefty Specialist wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:It's the newest attraction at Disney. I would recommend avoiding it.


Oy, what the cleanup must be like.

Best to use one of your Fast Passes on it.
I believe that someday I will punch that arrogant foreman at the plant square on his fat nose; that I will get in the last word with my wife; that I will win the Irish sweepstakes; that the Mets will start a winning streak.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Lefty Specialist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:31 am

User avatar
Lefty Specialist
77) Jack Fisher, SP, RP, 1964-1968

Posts: 5535
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:58 am
Location: Location, Location.
Democrats, for better or worse, have made the calculation to purge their offenders. It'll be a stark contrast, but a secondary one. The primary task in 2018 will be pointing out to the American people that Republicans are screwing you. They're stealing from you to give to the wealthy. Medicare, health care, Social Security are all on the chopping block unless Republicans are stopped.

And even if your local Republican congressman seems like a nice guy, he's empowering the bad people. That's how you build a wave.

The primary task in 2020 will be fixing the damage. Again, Democrats will be called in to clean up a Republican mess. Part of that mess will be sexual abuse. To have credibility on that issue, they'll need to have a no-tolerance policy. It means that in the short term there'll be more people biting the dust, I'd imagine, and some I may even like and admire.

As a side benefit, this is also a way to move beyond the Clintons once and for all.
Only in today's America can policy be based on the notion that the rich have too little and the poor have too much.

Resistance is not futile. https://www.indivisibleguide.com/indivisible-action

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Mets Willets Point » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:38 am

User avatar
Mets Willets Point
75) Bartolo Colon; SP, RP; 2014-2016

Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:53 pm
seawolf17 wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:It's the newest attraction at Disney. I would recommend avoiding it.


Oy, what the cleanup must be like.

Best to use one of your Fast Passes on it.


It used to be the Hall of Presidents, but they updated it for Trump.
Mr. Met knows; he's seen some shit.

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby cooby » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:50 am

User avatar
cooby
John Milner, OF, 1971-1977 - The Hammer

Posts: 22183
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:02 am
Lefty Specialist wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:It's the newest attraction at Disney. I would recommend avoiding it.


Oy, what the cleanup must be like.

I'll bet it stinks in there

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Nymr83 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:03 am

User avatar
Nymr83
Bob Murphy, Voice of the Mets, 1962-2003

Posts: 14270
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:18 pm
Lefty Specialist wrote:Democrats, for better or worse, have made the calculation to purge their offenders.



what a load of crap. Democrats ignored "Bubba, King of Sex Offenders" for as long as it was useful to them. now they kicked out a Senator where a Democratic governor gets to make the replacement. wake me up when they kick someone out and it actually hurts them politically and i will give credit. until then, they are just doing what is expedient.
Well, I've got nothing against the bunt, in its place. But most of the time that place is the bottom of a long-forgotten closet. -Earl Weaver

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Ceetar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:13 am

User avatar
Ceetar
Jane Jarvis, Organist, 1964-1979

Posts: 20560
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Moving target: Check Big Apple Brews
Nymr83 wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:Democrats, for better or worse, have made the calculation to purge their offenders.



what a load of crap. Democrats ignored "Bubba, King of Sex Offenders" for as long as it was useful to them. now they kicked out a Senator where a Democratic governor gets to make the replacement. wake me up when they kick someone out and it actually hurts them politically and i will give credit. until then, they are just doing what is expedient.


Can we have some awareness about the climate and tolerance for these things, twenty years apart?

I was still a teen at the time so I can't speak to if the other stuff was even made/public knowledge at the time.

but hell, maybe he would've stepped down and Al Gore would've won (well, would've won more?) and we wouldn't have been subjected to the Bush disaster.
"Look, would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?"

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Nymr83 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:18 am

User avatar
Nymr83
Bob Murphy, Voice of the Mets, 1962-2003

Posts: 14270
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:18 pm
Bush was awesome and I wish he was still president. (the rest of you probably wish that too, but in the way that you like having a cold more than the Flu)

Bill Clinton was still a key speaking at the D Convention a year and a half ago, so they didnt turn on him until JUST NOW when he has no role left to play. you can't credit for that. it would be like Republicans today saying "Nixon was a crook and we disassociate ourselves from him"
Well, I've got nothing against the bunt, in its place. But most of the time that place is the bottom of a long-forgotten closet. -Earl Weaver

Re: Politics in 2017

Postby Ceetar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:20 am

User avatar
Ceetar
Jane Jarvis, Organist, 1964-1979

Posts: 20560
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Moving target: Check Big Apple Brews
wake me when the Republicans say that.

Also I'm not really aware what a stance on Bill Clinton has to do with the current or future plans for the democratic party.
"Look, would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?"

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

PreviousNext

Return to The Non-Baseball Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest