Politics in 2018

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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Ceetar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:49 am

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41Forever wrote:Why would we hold someone’s wealth against them? Wealthy people usually are wealthy because they are successful at creating, building or running very complicated things.


well this is false, for instance, Trump is none of those things. he's an abject failure.

Money means almost nothing in terms of the ability of the person, but it provides enormous disparate advantage.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby metsmarathon » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:09 am

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using money as an indicator of "success" is akin to using height as an indicator of someone's ability in basketball.

they're not always related. but sometimes they are.

however, "success" doesn't necessarily translate into politics, or political leadership, or diplomacy. our president is, or claims to be, wealthy. he started out that way. his children are also wealthy. through no fault of their own.

success not translating is also really easy to see in other areas. a successful sports guy isnt necessarily a successful businessperson. the best basketball player in the universe has proven time and again to be a pretty shitty team owner. and when he's not wearing seriously questionable facial hair decisions, michael jordan is helping to hawk underwear while his moniker rakes in all kinds of dough for nike. his success in profiting off his name and basketball ability hasn't helped him run a team.

many successful players make terrible team managers, too. and coaches. it's all about skillsets.

a successful doctor may have no clue how to run a hospital. a successful engineer may have no clue how to manage a project. a successful pitcher is probably a shitty hitter. almost nobody (myself aside, of course) is good at everything.

wealth may indicate success. it may also indicate aloofness. or just plain lucky parentage / spousing. it's all about the person, their record, their views as demonstrated in their actions as they relate to the task at hand.

using wealth as a discriminator when choosing a politician, whichever way you happen to fall on the issue, is just as bullshit as using their religious affiliation. if being a muslim or a christian or an atheist or a satanist is going to disqualify or extra-qualify a person for office, then it would be demonstrated in their actions, not simply in their affiliation. and if it's not demonstrated in their actions, then it's a non-factor in the evaluation.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby 41Forever » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:30 am

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Ceetar wrote:
41Forever wrote:Why would we hold someone’s wealth against them? Wealthy people usually are wealthy because they are successful at creating, building or running very complicated things.


well this is false, for instance, Trump is none of those things. he's an abject failure.

Money means almost nothing in terms of the ability of the person, but it provides enormous disparate advantage.



There are lots and lots of reasons to dislike the President. But I don't think you can call him an abject failure.

To marathon's thoughtful post, I wasn't saying that wealth in and of itself should be a reason to vote for someone. But I don't think it makes them a bad person for should disqualify them.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:32 am

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I think the rationalization for voting against someone who's wealthy might be that they'd be considered out of touch.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 am

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I didn't say it makes them a bad person or disqualifies them. I said it's perfectly valid reason (for someone else, not me) to vote against a guy. I think it's just a reality that you vote for somebody because you think you relate to them and convince yourself that they relate to you. That's why politicians hire firms to teach them to act relatable.

I don't think anybody here (I could be wrong — see ceetar below) says wealth (necessarily) makes anybody bad. I simply disagreed that wealthy people usually are wealthy because they are successful at creating, building or running very complicated things.

Some are rich because their forebears were rich. My Senator Ben Cardin isn't rich because he's been demonstrably successful at creating, building or running very complicated things. His immigrant grandfather did that, running a store and turning that into a wholesale food distribution business. Senator Ben first ran for office before he graduated from law school. Others include the Kennedys, or President Trump, or Secretary DeVos. Winners of the birth lottery.

Some are fabulously rich because they married well: Secretary Kerry or Senator McCain or Speaker Pelosi. Or President Washington for that matter. They don't appear to have mismanaged the family's money, but the bulk of it came from the other side of the aisle.

And some who made their own money weren't successful at creating, building or running very complicated things, so much as they were rapacious in their exploitation of their fellow human, indifferent to the needs of the community, and/or miserly and larcenous about securing natural resources. Here the president can step forward, along with villains like Harold Simmons and Ivan Glasenberg.

Certainly some — Mayor Bloomberg, Meg Whitman — seem to have honorably done well. Most are a combination of these things. Nothing makes wealth more attainable than wealth. But the idea that wealth necessarily equals hard work and impressive acumen is not only hard to sustain, it absolutely explodes every time the president opens his mouth.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Ceetar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:45 am

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41Forever wrote:There are lots and lots of reasons to dislike the President. But I don't think you can call him an abject failure.

To marathon's thoughtful post, I wasn't saying that wealth in and of itself should be a reason to vote for someone. But I don't think it makes them a bad person for should disqualify them.


haven't found one yet.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby 41Forever » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:55 am

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Ceetar wrote:
41Forever wrote:There are lots and lots of reasons to dislike the President. But I don't think you can call him an abject failure.

To marathon's thoughtful post, I wasn't saying that wealth in and of itself should be a reason to vote for someone. But I don't think it makes them a bad person for should disqualify them.


haven't found one yet.


I'm confused. Are you saying that you've never found a wealthy person who isn't bad?

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Lefty Specialist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:51 pm

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41Forever wrote:Why would we hold someone’s wealth against them? Wealthy people usually are wealthy because they are successful at creating, building or running very complicated things.


Well, lots of people are wealthy merely because they won the gene lottery. People like, say, Jeff Wilpon and his kids. And we're doing our best to make sure that becomes more 'usual' with the latest tax bill.
Only in today's America can policy be based on the notion that the rich have too little and the poor have too much.

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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Ceetar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:06 pm

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41Forever wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
41Forever wrote:There are lots and lots of reasons to dislike the President. But I don't think you can call him an abject failure.

To marathon's thoughtful post, I wasn't saying that wealth in and of itself should be a reason to vote for someone. But I don't think it makes them a bad person for should disqualify them.


haven't found one yet.


I'm confused. Are you saying that you've never found a wealthy person who isn't bad?


haven't found a thing Trump has succeeded at. He's built nothing good, created nothing, and run nothing well.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:18 pm

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Well, he's succeeded at building a brand, and in getting himself elected President of the United States.

It doesn't mean he's not an idiot. That much is apparent every time he opens his mouth. (Or sends a tweet.)

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Ceetar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:22 pm

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Benjamin Grimm wrote:Well, he's succeeded at building a brand, and in getting himself elected President of the United States.

It doesn't mean he's not an idiot. That much is apparent every time he opens his mouth. (Or sends a tweet.)


a brand is not a 'thing'. the getting elected is not really a thing either, especially as he was outvoted significantly. And he's certainly botched the job it got him.

They're both just things he signed his name to and then messed up. Kim Kardashian, among others, does that better.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby 41Forever » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:50 pm

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Ceetar wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:Well, he's succeeded at building a brand, and in getting himself elected President of the United States.

It doesn't mean he's not an idiot. That much is apparent every time he opens his mouth. (Or sends a tweet.)


a brand is not a 'thing'. the getting elected is not really a thing either, especially as he was outvoted significantly. And he's certainly botched the job it got him.

They're both just things he signed his name to and then messed up. Kim Kardashian, among others, does that better.


Fearing this will look like I'm defending, but getting elected president is absolutely something he succeeded at. He got the needed votes in the Electoral College -- the ballot that counts. Just getting the nomination over an impressive field was successful.

Again, there are many, many reasons you can dislike the president. But I don't think it's accurate to say that he hasn't been successful at anything.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pm

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41Forever wrote:Fearing this will look like I'm defending, but getting elected president is absolutely something he succeeded at.

Except and except ... there are a lot of credible accounts that suggest the plan all along was to lose and profit wildly on the publicity. Even in attempting to fail, he failed.

Some people wait a long time to give a concession speech, grappling with the heartbreaking reality of loss after spending years devoted to winning. Trump waited until the early hours of the morning to give a victory speech.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 pm

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Edgy MD wrote:
41Forever wrote:Fearing this will look like I'm defending, but getting elected president is absolutely something he succeeded at.

Except and except ... there are a lot of credible accounts that suggest the plan all along was to lose and profit wildly on the publicity. Even in attempting to fail, he failed.


It was the political version of Springtime for Hitler. And he's such a nice guy, too!

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby 41Forever » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:00 pm

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Edgy MD wrote:
41Forever wrote:Fearing this will look like I'm defending, but getting elected president is absolutely something he succeeded at.

Except and except ... there are a lot of credible accounts that suggest the plan all along was to lose and profit wildly on the publicity. Even in attempting to fail, he failed.

Some people wait a long time to give a concession speech, grappling with the heartbreaking reality of loss after spending years devoted to winning. Trump waited until the early hours of the morning to give a victory speech.


He had to wait for Clinton to call and concede before he could give the victory speech. That's the protocol for these things.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:03 pm

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Well, he's a man who famously rejects protocol, and I readily believe his intention was to campaign to raise his brand, not to win.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:14 pm

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Edgy MD wrote:Well, he's a man who famously rejects protocol, and I readily believe his intention was to campaign to raise his brand, not to win.



I don't think he has an ideology. He's an opportunist who ran as a Republican because if he ran as a Democrat, he would've been mathematically eliminated in what amounts to the bottom of the second inning of the primaries. I think he's motivated by the sheer power of it all, the ability to settle old scores and to hurt others because I also think he's a sociopath and mainly, to enrich himself and his family. I think that deep down, he couldn't give a flying fuck, one way or the other whether abortions are or aren't legal or the state of the nation's infrastructure. His courting of the evangelicals is just another opportunity as far as I'm concerned because he probably doesn't believe in God, either. He's in it for the power and the glory and the money.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Edgy MD » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:30 pm

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Well, I think he cares about infrastructure, to the extent that ugly, outdated airports in America, in contrast to clean new ones in foreign capitals, don't flatter him.

By the way, The Daily News is reporting that he's banned personal phones from the West Wing.
I'll be your patron saint of heartbreak.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Chad Ochoseis » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:41 pm

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Some fairly big Senate race news from the backwater state where I live:

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/05/politics/josh-mandel-drops-out-ohio-senate-race-sherrod-brown/index.html

Ohio Republican Josh Mandel is dropping his bid to unseat Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown, citing a health issue his wife is facing.

Mandel's decision -- announced in an email to supporters Friday -- means Republicans have suddenly lost their leading candidate in a state President Donald Trump won by 9 percentage points in 2016.


Unfortunate news for Mandel; everything seems to point in the direction of his dropping out for family reasons and not "family reasons". He was ahead of Sherrod Brown in most early polls. There's no shortage of Ohio Republicans to take his place, but Brown is extremely popular here in the deep blue northeastern part of the state, and I'm not sure there's another Republican who can beat him. Mandel is from a Cleveland suburb and had the potential to make inroads into Brown's base.
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Nymr83 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:47 pm

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I met him briefly years ago, very likeable guy.
Well, I've got nothing against the bunt, in its place. But most of the time that place is the bottom of a long-forgotten closet. -Earl Weaver

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:24 pm

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Joe Arpaio, controversial sheriff pardoned by Trump, enters Arizona Senate race

Joe Arpaio, the Republican former Maricopa County sheriff known for his hard-line immigration tactics, says he's running for Senate.

"I have a lot to offer. I'm a big supporter of President Trump," Arpaio told the Washington Examiner in an interview kicking off his campaign. "I'm going to have to work hard; you don't take anything for granted. But I would not being doing this if I thought that I could not win. I'm not here to get my name in the paper, I get that every day, anyway."

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby 41Forever » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:40 am

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Interesting column in the New York Times by David Brooks, called "The Decline of Anti-Trumpism." Brooks isn't a fan, and seems to be issuing a call to raise, or at least improve, the level of debate in order to be more effective.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/opinion/anti-trump-opposition.html

I mention these inconvenient observations because the anti-Trump movement, of which I’m a proud member, seems to be getting dumber. It seems to be settling into a smug, fairy tale version of reality that filters out discordant information. More anti-Trumpers seem to be telling themselves a “Madness of King George” narrative: Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us.

I’d like to think it’s possible to be fervently anti-Trump while also not reducing everything to a fairy tale.

The anti-Trump movement suffers from insularity. Most of the people who detest Trump don’t know anybody who works with him or supports him. And if they do have friends and family members who admire Trump, they’ve learned not to talk about this subject. So they get most of their information about Trumpism from others who also detest Trumpism, which is always a recipe for epistemic closure.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Nymr83 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:43 am

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Sounds like a description of modern day politics in America, not limited to your feelings on Trump
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Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Centerfield » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:48 am

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Nymr83 wrote:Sounds like a description of modern day politics in America, not limited to your feelings on Trump


Absolutely right. Feel free to apply this to anti-Hillary feelings. Or Bernie, or deBlasio, or McConnell, or Ryan.

We could all stand to listen to each other in 2018.

Re: Politics in 2018

Postby Edgy MD » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:50 am

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I agree with Brooks in that hating on Trump becomes an end in itself. Another brand you identify with. A toggle on your social media profile.

Advocate for the people his policies are hurting. Go to the lines and push. I speak to myself as much as anybody.

Meanwhile, Congressman Darrell Issa, chair of the House Oversight and Government Reform committees, who used those committees to shoot at the Benghazi narrative, is retiring also.
I'll be your patron saint of heartbreak.

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