Low Balled

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Re: Low Balled

Postby Centerfield » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:24 pm

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You are right. And so was Kallet. Both times.

I don't see how anyone can realistically argue that the Mets are not worse now than they were when they left the field in October.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Edgy MD » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:28 pm

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Re: Low Balled

Postby d'Kong76 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:34 pm

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I don't know why, perhaps it's the ball that dropped on my head last night;
but I think the Mets are gonna sign Yo Yo to a reasonable contract after all
the smoke clears.
"Sometimes you have to get to know someone really well to realize you're really strangers." - Mary Tyler Moore

Re: Low Balled

Postby Centerfield » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:41 pm

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Would be something wouldn't it?

Some articles say the price for Yo or Upton is dropping.

I hope they have not spent too much on ancillary pieces already.

Re: Low Balled

Postby batmagadanleadoff » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:43 pm

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Centerfield wrote:Would be something wouldn't it?

Some articles say the price for Yo or Upton is dropping.

I hope they have not spent too much on ancillary pieces already.


Too much? By what measure? The Mets are in the bottom third in payroll.

Re: Low Balled

Postby LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:51 pm

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I'm not sure about a price drop, per se, but multiple sources do seem to indicate that-- with the Orioles nowhere near Cespedes at his reported asking price, and the White Sox unwilling to go above three years-- the market is softening significantly.

That said, once one or more of the remaining big-ticket OF names picks a new home, that will probably change immediately. I don't see the Mets moving anywhere near aggressively enough on something like this to take advantage. Hell, there's been nothing to indicate they'd want to. Really, why am I even wasting the finger energy to type this? Why not just type random sequences of words--it would be likely just as useful or meaningful. Google cat scheduler barrelhead grant-writing fart shaggy mastodon, cocoa Venetian thirty-seven bailiwick shaved ape. SHAVED APE!
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Edgy MD » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:46 pm

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Re: Low Balled

Postby Ceetar » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:08 pm

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Centerfield wrote:You are right. And so was Kallet. Both times.

I don't see how anyone can realistically argue that the Mets are not worse now than they were when they left the field in October.


what does that even mean? It's a long season, and simply stating the year 'better on paper' than the team was when the season ended is pretty meaningless. You replay that World Series again immediately and the Mets could just as well win it. They had as much a chance as anyone in the playoffs. The team as it stands now is in a very very good position to make the playoffs and have that chance again. Better than last year. "on paper" the Mets rotation is easily 20% better just by the calendar saying 2016 instead of 2015. Just on the basis of who's going to pitch the ~1458 innings.

I happen to believe the Mets could go 6 years on Cespedes and blow him out of the water if they really wanted to. But no matter what team you are, when you start doing that suddenly you have to do it again and again and those contracts start stacking and hurting. Yes, the Mets should be able to weather a couple of bad contracts, but they don't necessarily need to take them on just because they can. Certainly not for Cespedes. That stuff should be reserved for top 10 guys like Wright, and irreplaceable guys like Shortstops (Reyes would've been worth it still, imo), Catchers and Center Fielders. (which Cespedes isn't)
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Nymr83 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:47 pm

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d'Kong76 wrote:Well, they weren't a playoff-esque team until mid summer. Amirite?


i dont agree that the roster as constructed on april 1st wasnt playoff worthy, a full season of wright/d'arnaud probably equals the 2 great months of cespedes
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Gwreck » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:41 pm

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Ceetar wrote:It's a long season, and simply stating the year 'better on paper' than the team was when the season ended is pretty meaningless. You replay that World Series again immediately and the Mets could just as well win it. They had as much a chance as anyone in the playoffs.


Yeah, well, they didn't win it, did they?

And Isn't the point to make the team better so that they have a better chance than anyone in the playoffs? And can make the playoffs every season?

Re: Low Balled

Postby El Segundo Escupidor » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:52 pm

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This offseason reeks of the same bullshit as the 2001 offseason where Appier (replacing Hampton) and Shinjo were the Wilpon's idea of acquiring the missing pieces to "go one better" the following year.

Edit: Funnily enough it was the year they decided to pass up on A-Rod and Phillips' infamous "24+1" comment.
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Centerfield » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:43 am

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Ceetar wrote:
Centerfield wrote:You are right. And so was Kallet. Both times.

I don't see how anyone can realistically argue that the Mets are not worse now than they were when they left the field in October.


what does that even mean? It's a long season, and simply stating the year 'better on paper' than the team was when the season ended is pretty meaningless. You replay that World Series again immediately and the Mets could just as well win it. They had as much a chance as anyone in the playoffs. The team as it stands now is in a very very good position to make the playoffs and have that chance again. Better than last year. "on paper" the Mets rotation is easily 20% better just by the calendar saying 2016 instead of 2015. Just on the basis of who's going to pitch the ~1458 innings.

I happen to believe the Mets could go 6 years on Cespedes and blow him out of the water if they really wanted to. But no matter what team you are, when you start doing that suddenly you have to do it again and again and those contracts start stacking and hurting. Yes, the Mets should be able to weather a couple of bad contracts, but they don't necessarily need to take them on just because they can. Certainly not for Cespedes. That stuff should be reserved for top 10 guys like Wright, and irreplaceable guys like Shortstops (Reyes would've been worth it still, imo), Catchers and Center Fielders. (which Cespedes isn't)


It means that the NY Mets had better players in October of 2015 than they do now. As of now, their lineup is weaker, their rotation is weaker, and their bullpen is weaker. Their bench may be comparable.

I get that they still have a good chance to make the playoffs next year, even though they are worse than last year. For me, that is not good enough. I think the goal of every offseason should be to get better. They've failed at this. In fact, as LWFS said, there's been nothing to indicate that getting better was even on their radar.

If just being "good enough" is good enough for you, then I can see why you would be happy. I think they should try field the best team possible. And that is why this off-season is so frustrating for me. Unlike last off-season, better, easily obtainable options are everywhere.

I agree with you that "better on paper" doesn't mean everything. Anything can happen in baseball. But it certainly means something. And since we don't have a crystal ball, that information, which is a compilation of s past performance, is our best indicator of future performance. That is why we can reasonably conclude that the Mets have better starting pitching than the Phillies. Or, why Jason Heyward gets multiple suitors around $200 million, while no team has offered me shit this offseason.

At this point, indications are that you don't need to go 6 years on Cespedes. Four or five may get it done. And I certainly don't buy the logic that once you make a big deal, you have to keep making them.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Centerfield » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:55 am

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El Segundo Escupidor wrote:This offseason reeks of the same bullshit as the 2001 offseason where Appier (replacing Hampton) and Shinjo were the Wilpon's idea of acquiring the missing pieces to "go one better" the following year.

Edit: Funnily enough it was the year they decided to pass up on A-Rod and Phillips' infamous "24+1" comment.


And it's also reminiscent of the poor offseason following the 2006 season. It really does seem like the Wilpon philosophy is "Wow, we were great last year. We can afford to pull up a bit."

At least in 2001 and 2007, the failures were somewhat defensible. In 2001 and 2007 the Mets had a top tier payroll (4th in MLB, 3rd in MLB respectively) and in both off-seasons there were a limited number of readily available options.

This year, the core of young players is much better than those years, they have a low payroll, so there either is, or should be, money to spend, and there was a glut of talent available on the market. Some of it is even still there.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Edgy MD » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:27 am

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Kevin Appier's was a bad contract, but it certainly did less damage than Hampton's did.

Even in the short term — the let's-build-on-last-year's-success term — Appier was unambiguously better than Hampton in 2001.
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Re: Low Balled

Postby d'Kong76 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:41 am

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Nymr83 wrote:
d'Kong76 wrote:Well, they weren't a playoff-esque team until mid summer. Amirite?

i dont agree that the roster as constructed on april 1st wasnt playoff worthy, a full season of wright/d'arnaud probably equals the 2 great months of cespedes

You thought so, a lot of us didn't...viewtopic.php?f=16&t=22510
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Mets Guy in Michigan » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:00 am

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I think you guys might be falling into the New York sports pundit trap of declaring the team a cheap disaster because it didn't land this or that free agent.

It's Jan. 2. Opening Day is four months away. If everything is still weaker when things get serious, that's a problem. Today, not so much. I think that Sandy and gang get the benefit of doubt having gone to the World Series and all.

But even still, I'm not sure the rotation is weaker. A healthy Matz is better than Niese.

I'm not sure the bullpen is much weaker, especially if Blevins can successfully navigate curbs. Is Reed coming back?

Is Walker a better fielder than Murphy? If so, that might be an upgrade there, which also helps your pitchers avoid four-out innings.

I'd like to see a scary bat somewhere. The only place that can be is in the outfield, which means you have to deal Granderson and probably eat some salary.

Noting that other teams aren't ready to hand Cespedes a mega deal shows that the Mets aren't wrong in their thinking.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:12 am

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Reed is still around. And I think we'll see Hansel Robles step into a bigger role.

And let's not forget Jim Henderson!

I agree that it has not been an inspiring offseason. But I also agree that what we've seen so far is not the final word on what the 2016 team is going to look like.

Let's see what happens. We don't really have any other alternative anyway.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Edgy MD » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:28 am

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Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:But even still, I'm not sure the rotation is weaker. A healthy Matz is better than Niese.

I feel confident it isn't weaker. But the idea isn't to have the best record in December.
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Benjamin Grimm » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:36 am

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A healthy Matz would be wonderful. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy we can count on for 28 to 30 starts, but stranger things have happened.

Re: Low Balled

Postby d'Kong76 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:51 am

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Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:I think you guys might be falling into the New York sports pundit trap of declaring the team a cheap disaster because it didn't land this or that free agent.

I can guarantee you I'm not falling into any pundit trap. I don't need
a newspaper or talk radio host to remind me that the Wilpons are broke
and cheap. The team that we swept in the playoffs has improved them-
selves and the Mets have penny-pinched so far this off-season.

I also said that I felt they may still sign Yo Yo somewhere in this thread.
"Sometimes you have to get to know someone really well to realize you're really strangers." - Mary Tyler Moore

Re: Low Balled

Postby Centerfield » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:57 pm

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Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:I think you guys might be falling into the New York sports pundit trap of declaring the team a cheap disaster because it didn't land this or that free agent.


This is just pointless and stupid. If you are going to dismiss us having fallen into some trap, at least take the time to read what we are saying. Not a single person here has declared this team a "cheap disaster". Even the harshest of critics here think that as of right now, the Mets are favorites to take the NL East. Our criticisms are not anything to do with one free agent or another.

I think you might be falling into the trap of reading what you want to read, other than reading what people are actually saying.

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:It's Jan. 2. Opening Day is four months away. If everything is still weaker when things get serious, that's a problem. Today, not so much. I think that Sandy and gang get the benefit of doubt having gone to the World Series and all.


I know what date it is. I promise you that. I'm also aware that things might change between now and Opening Day. Again, if you read this thread, you would see the exchange between KC and I where we discuss the possibility of signing Cespedes. No one here is unequivocally saying that the Mets are done. And if they do what we want them to do, I assure you that criticism would disappear. Did you hear anyone complaining in August?

If you want to hold off on any comments until Opening Day, that's your prerogative. Some here like to discuss things that happen in real time. (If we didn't, we would just shut down the board during the off-season.) We offer input, make suggestions, applaud and criticize as warranted.

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:But even still, I'm not sure the rotation is weaker. A healthy Matz is better than Niese.


Matz was healthy in October and was very much a part of the rotation. I'm surprised you don't remember this. If they needed 5 starters, Niese would have been the fifth starter. But he is gone now, having been shipped out for Walker. So we are left with Colon. An entertaining player, but a worse pitcher. (And even if you disagree with this, having Colon and Niese both as options, is better than just having Colon.)

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:I'm not sure the bullpen is much weaker, especially if Blevins can successfully navigate curbs. Is Reed coming back?


I didn't say it was much weaker. I said weaker. Clippard, for all his faults, was one of our best relievers.

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:Is Walker a better fielder than Murphy? If so, that might be an upgrade there, which also helps your pitchers avoid four-out innings.


What is the point here? That the lineup is better? You are ok with losing Cespedes because of the upgrade defensively between Walker and Murphy?

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:I'd like to see a scary bat somewhere. The only place that can be is in the outfield, which means you have to deal Granderson and probably eat some salary.


Wait, so the lineup is not better? I am losing your argument here. Or are you just typing random words like LWFS? SHAVED APE!

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:Noting that other teams aren't ready to hand Cespedes a mega deal shows that the Mets aren't wrong in their thinking.


So let me get this straight. Cespedes hasn't signed a deal anywhere. So this means that the Mets are right.

But Cespedes, you'd have to think, will eventually sign a deal someplace. Will that mean the Mets are then wrong?

No one is advocating that the Mets offer a "mega deal". In fact, the last few posts are about the falling market for Cespedes. This is not the first time I've questioned your reading comprehension skills. Is English not your first language?

Re: Low Balled

Postby Mets Guy in Michigan » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:10 pm

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This is not the first time I've questioned your reading comprehension skills. Is English not your first language?


You know, Centerfield, if you want to have a good hot stove baseball discussion among friends, count me in. If you want to be unkind and hurl insults around, you're on your own.

Re: Low Balled

Postby Nymr83 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:36 pm

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Mets Guy in Michigan wrote:
This is not the first time I've questioned your reading comprehension skills. Is English not your first language?


You know, Centerfield, if you want to have a good hot stove baseball discussion among friends, count me in. If you want to be unkind and hurl insults around, you're on your own.


dont feel bad MGiM, a couple of guys here have gone off the deep end in their Wilpon-hate this offseason and will attack anyone who tries to reason with them.
Well, I've got nothing against the bunt, in its place. But most of the time that place is the bottom of a long-forgotten closet. -Earl Weaver

Re: Low Balled

Postby d'Kong76 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:12 pm

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Well, attack is a little strong.
I don't like to be told what I'm thinking or what trap I'm falling into.
If anything, I feel the fans that turn their heads away from the fact that
the team's owner's suck are the real lemmings that are in a trap.
It's mind boggling that anyone would side with them.
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Re: Low Balled

Postby Edgy MD » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:29 pm

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Lemmings are perfectly noble little soft-furred herbivores that have been historically maligned by deliberately false reports of stupidity and mass suicide.
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